Re: [jadmin] Jabber Server list

[Sean Dilda]

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Jesse Thompson wrote:
>> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> We've been working on a new process for the public server
>>> listings. More information here:
>>>
>>> http://new.jabber.org/im-services
>>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service
>>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service/policy
>>>
>>> Feedback is welcome. :)
>> I think it would be useful to allow "closed" systems to register as
>> well, perhaps under a different section.
>
> For most end users, I think that would not be especially helpful. We are
> have been reworking the site to mostly provide information that will
> help new end users get started with Jabber. If we show them a list of IM
> services that 90% of the users can't register with, they'll just get
> confused. Or such has been the philosophy of the website team so far.
>

Bringing up an old thread, I understand how that would be frustrating to
users.

However, it might also be useful PR to show what private servers are
currently doing jabber federation. There are a growing number of
universities setting up jabber servers. In addition, there are also
several private corporations using it. Having a list that included all
of these might help raise the image of xmpp and bring more attention to it.
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[Peter Saint-Andre]

Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 10:52:14AM -0400, Sean Dilda wrote:
> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> > Jesse Thompson wrote:
> >> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> >>> We've been working on a new process for the public server
> >>> listings. More information here:
> >>>
> >>> http://new.jabber.org/im-services
> >>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service
> >>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service/policy
> >>>
> >>> Feedback is welcome. :)
> >> I think it would be useful to allow "closed" systems to register as
> >> well, perhaps under a different section.
> >
> > For most end users, I think that would not be especially helpful. We are
> > have been reworking the site to mostly provide information that will
> > help new end users get started with Jabber. If we show them a list of IM
> > services that 90% of the users can't register with, they'll just get
> > confused. Or such has been the philosophy of the website team so far.
> >
>
> Bringing up an old thread, I understand how that would be frustrating to
> users.
>
> However, it might also be useful PR to show what private servers are
> currently doing jabber federation. There are a growing number of
> universities setting up jabber servers. In addition, there are also
> several private corporations using it. Having a list that included all
> of these might help raise the image of xmpp and bring more attention to it.

Well for instance at jabber.org we connect with a lot of different xmpp
services, but we don't log those services to come up with a big list of
all the services that exist (or that connect to jabber.org). It would be
impressive to build that list, but I'm a bit uncomfortable about making
such a list public, since you might not expect the hostname of your xmpp
service to be published on the 'net just because you've federated with
the jabber.org service...

/psa

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[Jesse Thompson]

Sean Dilda wrote:
> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>> Jesse Thompson wrote:
>>> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>> We've been working on a new process for the public server
>>>> listings. More information here:
>>>>
>>>> http://new.jabber.org/im-services
>>>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service
>>>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service/policy
>>>>
>>>> Feedback is welcome. :)
>>> I think it would be useful to allow "closed" systems to register as
>>> well, perhaps under a different section.
>> For most end users, I think that would not be especially helpful. We are
>> have been reworking the site to mostly provide information that will
>> help new end users get started with Jabber. If we show them a list of IM
>> services that 90% of the users can't register with, they'll just get
>> confused. Or such has been the philosophy of the website team so far.
>>
>
> Bringing up an old thread, I understand how that would be frustrating to
> users.
>
> However, it might also be useful PR to show what private servers are
> currently doing jabber federation. There are a growing number of
> universities setting up jabber servers. In addition, there are also
> several private corporations using it. Having a list that included all
> of these might help raise the image of xmpp and bring more attention to it.

I just noticed this on process-one's blog feed:

http://www.process-one.net/en/imtrends/
http://www.imtrends.com/do/search_domain_simple?domain=jabber.org&x=0&y=0

It's certainly a step in the right direction.

Jesse



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> _______________________________________________

--
Jesse Thompson
Email/IM: jesse.thompson (AT) doit (DOT) wisc.edu

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[Peter Saint-Andre]

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 06:42:29PM +0000, Daniel Henninger wrote:
> Lemme try a slightly different perspective here. First off, I think random end users definitely shouldn't easily find a list of private servers. I highly agree with them getting confused easily. I mean if you go looking for a list of servers and come across jabber.org and awesomedudes.org you might go with awesomedudes.org because it's a cooler sounding name to you. Oh crap, this is a private one? I don't understand.
>
> HOWEVER, I would -love- to be able to see a list including private servers. Why? What if my server starts getting "bothered" by awesomeninjas.org and I'm like what is this server bothering mine? It would be handy to be able to go to a site, type in awesomeninjas.org, and end up finding a listing at jabber.org for the service and ideally some contact information so I can ask them wtf they're doing.

So that service would be for other server admins, not end users,
correct?

> So ideally I'd say some sort of ability to register private servers and just not include them in the public "here's a server to use" lists. I might even go as far as to suggest, must register with jabber.org to get startcom cert. (in other words, startcom cert is managed/set up for you by registering with jabber.org)

You need to register with xmpp.net to get a startcom cert, but right now
we don't use xmpp.net as a directory of all the servers in existence (or
anything except a launching pad for server admins to get to StartCom for
obtaining a cert).

> Now, I can't currently resolve new.jabber.org, so I can't look at the current setup, but just some thoughts.

Yeah that was a temporary domain for bootstrapping purposes.

/psa

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[Peter Saint-Andre]

On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 06:55:39PM +0000, Daniel Henninger wrote:

> Is there any reason why xmpp.net and jabber.org have to be completely separate databases? Register with xmpp.net, ok, flag mine as a public server, maybe fill out some more info, ok now it's also populated into jabber.org's server list.

That's the way we used to do it, then we changed the process. I'm not
really quite sure why we did that... ;-)

/psa

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[Sander Devrieze]

2008/6/23 Jesse Thompson <jesse.thompson (AT) doit (DOT) wisc.edu>:
> Sean Dilda wrote:
>> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> Jesse Thompson wrote:
>>>> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>>> We've been working on a new process for the public server
>>>>> listings. More information here:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://new.jabber.org/im-services
>>>>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service
>>>>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service/policy
>>>>>
>>>>> Feedback is welcome. :)
>>>> I think it would be useful to allow "closed" systems to register as
>>>> well, perhaps under a different section.
>>> For most end users, I think that would not be especially helpful. We are
>>> have been reworking the site to mostly provide information that will
>>> help new end users get started with Jabber. If we show them a list of IM
>>> services that 90% of the users can't register with, they'll just get
>>> confused. Or such has been the philosophy of the website team so far.
>>>
>>
>> Bringing up an old thread, I understand how that would be frustrating to
>> users.
>>
>> However, it might also be useful PR to show what private servers are
>> currently doing jabber federation. There are a growing number of
>> universities setting up jabber servers. In addition, there are also
>> several private corporations using it. Having a list that included all
>> of these might help raise the image of xmpp and bring more attention to it.
>
> I just noticed this on process-one's blog feed:
>
> http://www.process-one.net/en/imtrends/
> http://www.imtrends.com/do/search_domain_simple?domain=jabber.org&x=0&y=0
>
> It's certainly a step in the right direction.

What about a Robots.txt XEP to allow servers to define what a bot is
and is not allowed to do?

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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[Peter Saint-Andre]

> 2008/6/23 Jesse Thompson <jesse.thompson (AT) doit (DOT) wisc.edu>:
>> Sean Dilda wrote:
>>> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>> Jesse Thompson wrote:
>>>>> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>>>>> We've been working on a new process for the public server
>>>>>> listings. More information here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://new.jabber.org/im-services
>>>>>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service
>>>>>> http://new.jabber.org/submission-guide/im-service/policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Feedback is welcome. :)
>>>>> I think it would be useful to allow "closed" systems to register as
>>>>> well, perhaps under a different section.
>>>> For most end users, I think that would not be especially helpful. We
>>>> are
>>>> have been reworking the site to mostly provide information that will
>>>> help new end users get started with Jabber. If we show them a list of
>>>> IM
>>>> services that 90% of the users can't register with, they'll just get
>>>> confused. Or such has been the philosophy of the website team so far.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Bringing up an old thread, I understand how that would be frustrating
>>> to
>>> users.
>>>
>>> However, it might also be useful PR to show what private servers are
>>> currently doing jabber federation. There are a growing number of
>>> universities setting up jabber servers. In addition, there are also
>>> several private corporations using it. Having a list that included
>>> all
>>> of these might help raise the image of xmpp and bring more attention to
>>> it.
>>
>> I just noticed this on process-one's blog feed:
>>
>> http://www.process-one.net/en/imtrends/
>> http://www.imtrends.com/do/search_domain_simple?domain=jabber.org&x=0&y=0
>>
>> It's certainly a step in the right direction.
>
> What about a Robots.txt XEP to allow servers to define what a bot is
> and is not allowed to do?

Good idea. We need spiders!

/psa

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[Sander Devrieze]

2008/6/23 Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter (AT) stpeter (DOT) im>:
<snip>
>> What about a Robots.txt XEP to allow servers to define what a bot is
>> and is not allowed to do?
>
> Good idea. We need spiders!

We *have* spiders! We only need a way to allow server admins to
control the spiders a bit.

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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[Mickaël Rémond]

Hello,

Le 23 juin 08 Ã* 19:36, Peter Saint-Andre a écrit :
> Well for instance at jabber.org we connect with a lot of different
> xmpp
> services, but we don't log those services to come up with a big list
> of
> all the services that exist (or that connect to jabber.org). It
> would be
> impressive to build that list, but I'm a bit uncomfortable about
> making
> such a list public, since you might not expect the hostname of your
> xmpp
> service to be published on the 'net just because you've federated with
> the jabber.org service...


Yes, I agree. Publishing a list of domains without asking the user is
a bit unfriendly.

--
Mickaël Rémond
http://www.process-one.net/




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[Sean Dilda]

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 10:52:14AM -0400, Sean Dilda wrote:

>>
>> However, it might also be useful PR to show what private servers are
>> currently doing jabber federation. There are a growing number of
>> universities setting up jabber servers. In addition, there are also
>> several private corporations using it. Having a list that included all
>> of these might help raise the image of xmpp and bring more attention to it.
>
> Well for instance at jabber.org we connect with a lot of different xmpp
> services, but we don't log those services to come up with a big list of
> all the services that exist (or that connect to jabber.org). It would be
> impressive to build that list, but I'm a bit uncomfortable about making
> such a list public, since you might not expect the hostname of your xmpp
> service to be published on the 'net just because you've federated with
> the jabber.org service...
>

I had not intended for it to be an automatically harvested list of
servers. Rather, I thought of it as an opt-in list like
http://www.jabber.org/im-services.
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