[jdev] Do Not Disturb, Directed Presence, etc

[Dave Cridland]

Pedro Melo wrote something on Jaiku that made me think. (Always
dangerous).

His scenario was basically:

- Two (presumably) mutually subscribed resources, A and B.

- A is in Do Not Disturb. B isn't.

- A sends B a message.

- B responds with another message.

- A responds to B's reply with an auto-responder whining about being
disturbed.

A couple of things strike me here:

1) A really shouldn't be auto-responding to a response.

2) This could be simplified if, when sending the initial message, A
sent directed presence to B.

3) Auto-responders, and possibly automatic messages in general,
really ought to be marked as such, to avoid an even worse case, where
B promptly auto-responds back, and a messaging loop occurs.

As it happens, in this particular case, B was in fact a bot, and
cheerfully posted the autoresponse to (at least) Jaiku. It wasn't
Pedro's bot, incidentally, not that it really matters.

I was curious as to what developers thought about the situation, and
whether any clients do in fact send directed presence to roster
people when in states such as dnd.

Finally, if dnd really does mean Do NOT Disturb At All Ever, then I'm
in raised-eyebrow territory, because I thought it meant Do Not
Disturb Unless Important - since if you really don't want to be
disturbed, then there's that "unavailable" presence type. But what's
important is tricky - so perhaps it's an application of XEP-0155, and
we negotiate that between clients.

Any thoughts?

Dave.
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[Michal 'vorner' Vaner]

Hello

On Tue, Jul 01, 2008 at 09:57:56AM +0100, Pedro Melo wrote:
> I was wondering if there is a potential use for the forgotten <thread> but
> I can't make that case yet.

Maybe send the auto-response only once during the thread?

> But I would like to see automatic messages marked somehow anyway, maybe a
> <x xmlns="urn:xmpp:automatic-message' />. This would allow me to influence
> the display of such messages (and other things like don't store them in the
> archive).

Or not send auto-responses at all. If someone can't read in my status
I'm DND, will he be able to read it from a message? It is only duplicate
information. If someone feels he needs it repeated in the chat window,
let his (not remote) client do that.

> I often understand DND as a state where I can interrupt other to ask some
> stuff for the task that I'm doing. And I'm willing to accept back
> responses, so it should be accompanied by a direct presence perhaps.

I take DND as „No useless talking like wanna go for a drink, but I'm
here, if it is really important (like your house is on fire), it is
ok)“.

Have a nice day

--
A nuclear war can ruin your whole day.

Michal 'vorner' Vaner

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[Remko Tronçon]

> - A responds to B's reply with an auto-responder whining about being
> disturbed.

I have yet to discover another use of auto-responders except annoying
people. First of all, I can see when clicking someone's roster item to
send him a message that he/she is not online. Secondly, my IM client's
chat dialog tells me "Your contact is away: Out eating". If I still
send him a message, despite all this, i don't really want a reply
stating the over-obvious "I'm currently away, out eating" (which is
especially annoying if the other side decides to wait 2 seconds
because of lag, and his chat dialog is already closed). I say away
with all auto-responders.

cheers,
Remko
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[Kevin Smith]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Remko Tronçon <remko (AT) el-tramo (DOT) be> wrote:
>> - A responds to B's reply with an auto-responder whining about being
>> disturbed.
>
> I have yet to discover another use of auto-responders except annoying
> ...

I agree with pretty much all of Remko's post.

/K
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[Pedro Melo]

On Jul 1, 2008, at 10:57 AM, Kevin Smith wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Remko Tronçon <remko (AT) el-tramo (DOT) be>
> wrote:
>>> - A responds to B's reply with an auto-responder whining about being
>>> disturbed.
>>
>> I have yet to discover another use of auto-responders except annoying
>> ...
>
> I agree with pretty much all of Remko's post.

I do too... The question is what should bot authors do to prevent
problems, and given that some client authors will say "our clients
want this", what should the guidelines be to said authors, to prevent
message loops.

Do you need a email-like Precedence header (like tagging messages as
Dave suggested) or checking <identity> to see if we are talking to
something that claims to be human is enough?

Just because you, remko, and me don't like auto-replies, doesn't make
them go away, that's my fear.

Best regards,
--
HIId: Pedro Melo
SMTP: melo (AT) co (DOT) sapo.pt
XMPP: pedro.melo (AT) sapo (DOT) pt


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[Kevin Smith]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Pedro Melo <melo (AT) co (DOT) sapo.pt> wrote:
> Just because you, remko, and me don't like auto-replies, doesn't make
> them go away, that's my fear.

I propose the following text for -bis, then:
"""
Autoreplies are bad. If you want to use one, go away.
"""
Would that solve the problem? :D

As to the proposed problem with message loops, have we ever seen this?
It sounds like clients with autoreplies will end up getting bug
reports and having to fix this :)

/K
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[Dave Cridland]

On Tue Jul 1 11:38:33 2008, Kevin Smith wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Pedro Melo <melo (AT) co (DOT) sapo.pt> wrote:
> > Just because you, remko, and me don't like auto-replies, doesn't
> make
> > them go away, that's my fear.
>
> I propose the following text for -bis, then:
> """
> Autoreplies are bad. If you want to use one, go away.
> """
> Would that solve the problem? :D
>
>
Actually, RFC 3921 itself has the right gunk for marking the
auto-responders, we just need to remind people that this gunk exists,
and how to use it. This is Best Practise territory, not new protocol.
And yes, this Best Practise document could also say "Don't send
spurious auto-responses to a bot, silly."


> As to the proposed problem with message loops, have we ever seen
> this?
> It sounds like clients with autoreplies will end up getting bug
> reports and having to fix this :)

Well, yes, I've not seen it, nor heard of it happening, but given the
steady increase in services run over XMPP with an IM-like interface,
I suspect that we could end up seeing them more. Certainly the
accidental posting of auto-responders seems likely, and while not as
scary as a messaging loop, it's certainly worth avoiding.

Dave.
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[Jonathan Dickinson]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org [mailto:jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org] On
> Behalf Of Kevin Smith
> Sent: 01 July 2008 12:39 PM
> To: Jabber/XMPP software development list
> Subject: Re: [jdev] Do Not Disturb, Directed Presence, etc
>
> As to the proposed problem with message loops, have we ever seen this?
> It sounds like clients with autoreplies will end up getting bug
> reports and having to fix this :)

One of My MSN contacts uses trillian (by the looks of it) and it auto-responds, but only does so +/- three times. So you wouldn't get a message loop in that case. But the whole situation is quite humorous:

-----------------------------------------
Juliet (AT) server (DOT) org (do not disturb) [_][x]
-----------------------------------------
Romeo (do not disturb): Please go away.
Romeo (do not disturb): Please go away.
Romeo (do not disturb): Please go away.
....

My ASCII art sucks but I am sure you get the irony of the situation...

Maybe a more appropriate option would be to have only a toaster pop up in the DND mode with a 'do not disturb' link that will autorespond and a 'ignore' option that does nothing, instead of a new chat window + autorespond/no chat window + autorespond.

>
> /K
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[Jonathan Dickinson]

I think the base problem here is that people don't read. I may set my status to DND, but I promise you I will get some idiot contact wanting to partake in some small talk.

I think the solution, really, would be the flashing red lights and 'do you feel lucky punk' as Pedro said. Ultimately this takes:

1. The client (program) who is in do not disturb mode to:
a. Provide non-intrusive and brief alerts.
b. Allow the user to respond with a predefined message by interacting (a la attended predefined response, Nimbuzz has something like these).
2. The client (program) who wants to contact the user in DND to:
a. "This user has asked not to be disturbed and should be contacted only if absolutely nessecary" should be displayed at the top of the chat window.
b. Possibly an annoying confirmation dialog on the first message sent. "Are you sure you want to disturb this person?" Or even requiring that the user press an annoying key sequence like CTRL+Enter to send every message.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org [mailto:jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org] On
> Behalf Of Remko Tronçon
> Sent: 01 July 2008 11:47 AM
> To: Jabber/XMPP software development list
> Subject: Re: [jdev] Do Not Disturb, Directed Presence, etc
>
> > - A responds to B's reply with an auto-responder whining about being
> > disturbed.
>
> I have yet to discover another use of auto-responders except annoying
> people. First of all, I can see when clicking someone's roster item to
> send him a message that he/she is not online. Secondly, my IM client's
> chat dialog tells me "Your contact is away: Out eating". If I still
> send him a message, despite all this, i don't really want a reply
> stating the over-obvious "I'm currently away, out eating" (which is
> especially annoying if the other side decides to wait 2 seconds
> because of lag, and his chat dialog is already closed). I say away
> with all auto-responders.
>
> cheers,
> Remko
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[Kevin Smith]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Jonathan Dickinson <jonathanD (AT) k2 (DOT) com> wrote:
> b. Possibly an annoying confirmation dialog on the first message sent. "Are you sure you want to disturb this person?" Or even requiring that the user press an annoying key sequence like CTRL+Enter to send every message.

Absolutely: clients should go out of their way to annoy their users
whenever possible!

/K
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[Jonathan Dickinson]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org [mailto:jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org] On
> Behalf Of Kevin Smith
> Sent: 01 July 2008 04:01 PM
> To: Jabber/XMPP software development list
> Subject: Re: [jdev] Do Not Disturb, Directed Presence, etc
>
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Jonathan Dickinson <jonathanD (AT) k2 (DOT) com>
> wrote:
> > b. Possibly an annoying confirmation dialog on the first message
> sent. "Are you sure you want to disturb this person?" Or even requiring
> that the user press an annoying key sequence like CTRL+Enter to send
> every message.
>
> Absolutely: clients should go out of their way to annoy their users
> whenever possible!

It is important to note that you are potentially annoying another user here. If someone has to be annoyed it shouldn't be the person who "doesn't want to be disturbed."

>
> /K
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[Dave Cridland]

On Tue Jul 1 14:50:49 2008, Jonathan Dickinson wrote:
> I think the base problem here is that people don't read. I may set
> my status to DND, but I promise you I will get some idiot contact
> wanting to partake in some small talk.
>
>
You appreciate you're implying that you think at least some of your
contacts are idiots? :-)

The thing is, "absolutely necessary" - as you describe it later -
means different things to different people, and it seems pretty
obvious to me that you wouldn't be in dnd mode if you weren't
available to at least some degree. The problem is that it's difficult
to know what degree that is.


> I think the solution, really, would be the flashing red lights and
> 'do you feel lucky punk' as Pedro said. Ultimately this takes:
>
> 1. The client (program) who is in do not disturb mode to:
> a. Provide non-intrusive and brief alerts.

This seems sensible - so you'd essentially tell your client not to
disturb you.


> b. Allow the user to respond with a predefined message by
> interacting (a la attended predefined response, Nimbuzz has
> something like these).

I hadn't a clue what Nimbuzz is. Still don't, actually, because
apparently I need to use a "supported browser" - gosh, how '90's.
Given that I do indeed use a supported browser, and they just haven't
realised, I hereby pronounce them brain dead, and will ignore them
forthwith. (I'd say they can just "Nimbuzz" off, but that's too
obvious, so naturally I won't).

In any case, there's no real need for this - sticking yourself in dnd
is not a one-bit datum, you can provide all sorts of information in
the <status/>, or in various exciting PEP things, to provide useful
information as to *why* you're "dnd", and avoid auto-replies of this
nature entirely.


> 2. The client (program) who wants to contact the user in DND to:
> a. "This user has asked not to be disturbed and should be
> contacted only if absolutely nessecary" should be displayed at the
> top of the chat window.
> b. Possibly an annoying confirmation dialog on the first message
> sent. "Are you sure you want to disturb this person?" Or even
> requiring that the user press an annoying key sequence like
> CTRL+Enter to send every message.
>
>
Ah, the "My users are idiots" style of UI design - a self-fulfilling
marketing technique.

Both of these, of course, imply that dnd is a message to the contact
- considering it as a directive to the client which in turn contacts
might wish to consider when attempting to engage the user is an
interesting concept.

Let me explain in a more clarificational manner by way of an
expositional example:

Suppose I'm cheerfully typing rubbish, as is my wont, when the phone
rings. I stick my client into dnd, with a status of "on the
telephant".

Now consider that Kev Smith has an urgent need to exchange vapid
drivel with me. He may observe his client, which in turn informs him
that I am "dnd", and moreover either on the phone, or possibly an
elephant. However, his meaningless tomfoolery is, he feels, of
dramatic importance to me, thus and so he sends it anyway.

My client, however, knows that I have asked it not to disturb me, so
therefore it supresses its normal cacophony of bleeps, and merely
displays Kev's claptrap in an unobtrusive manner, to await my return
to the computer.

Now, although Kev never receives my blather and poppycock in return,
he does not take offense, because he is fully cogniscent that I am
not rude, but merely busy. (To be fair, he doesn't know I'm not being
rude, but this at least need not be the reason for my lack of twaddle
in return.)

When I do return the phone to its cradle, however, and return my
client to its normal availability, it may notify me in a vibrant and
exciting manner that Kev has sent me pending piffle, which I can then
respond to with tommyrot and malarkey.

The alternative plan is that, whilst engaged upon the phone, I choose
to repond to Kev, in which case, I can - and furthermore, I might
instruct my client that, to Kev, I am no longer "dnd", in which case
his balderdash will cause my client to plaintively ping, ding, and
possibly even dong as is its wont. I would assume it would also send
directed presence to Kev to inform him that - should I not respond in
a timely manner with bunkum of my own, then I am in fact being rude.
(Or, alternately, I'm making myself a cuppa.)

I hasten to add that I do not ever never spout nonsense, and any
resemblance to any Kev Smiths, real or imaginary, is entirely
coincidental.

Dave.
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[Remko Tronçon]

> My client, however, knows that I have asked it not to disturb me, so
> therefore it supresses its normal cacophony of bleeps, and merely
> displays Kev's claptrap in an unobtrusive manner, to await my return
> to the computer.

Or in short: if you don't want to be disturbed, your client needs to
make sure you don't get disturbed, which is what my client does. When
I go in DND mode, I just don't want messages to be popping up, and I
want my contacts to know that I will probably not answer. I don't mind
them sending me messages, on the contrary. And if I really didn't want
any messages from anyone, I would have gone offline with a status
message "Doing something very important").

cheers,
Remko

PS: I don't think message loops are a problem. Any normal client
auto-responds only once. Clients that don't are broken (versus clients
that only reply once are merely crippled). If 2 broken clients talk to
each other, then they can loop for all I care.
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[programacion5]

DEJAD DE TOCAR LOS COJONES
----- Original Message -----
From: "Remko Tronçon" <remko (AT) el-tramo (DOT) be>
To: "Jabber/XMPP software development list" <jdev (AT) jabber (DOT) org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: Re: [jdev] Do Not Disturb, Directed Presence, etc


>> My client, however, knows that I have asked it not to disturb me, so
>> therefore it supresses its normal cacophony of bleeps, and merely
>> displays Kev's claptrap in an unobtrusive manner, to await my return
>> to the computer.
>
> Or in short: if you don't want to be disturbed, your client needs to
> make sure you don't get disturbed, which is what my client does. When
> I go in DND mode, I just don't want messages to be popping up, and I
> want my contacts to know that I will probably not answer. I don't mind
> them sending me messages, on the contrary. And if I really didn't want
> any messages from anyone, I would have gone offline with a status
> message "Doing something very important").
>
> cheers,
> Remko
>
> PS: I don't think message loops are a problem. Any normal client
> auto-responds only once. Clients that don't are broken (versus clients
> that only reply once are merely crippled). If 2 broken clients talk to
> each other, then they can loop for all I care.
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[Jonathan Dickinson]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org [mailto:jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org] On
> Behalf Of Dave Cridland
> Sent: 01 July 2008 04:53 PM
> To: Jabber/XMPP software development list
> Subject: Re: [jdev] Do Not Disturb, Directed Presence, etc
>
> On Tue Jul 1 14:50:49 2008, Jonathan Dickinson wrote:
> > I think the base problem here is that people don't read. I may set
> > my status to DND, but I promise you I will get some idiot contact
> > wanting to partake in some small talk.
> >
> >
> You appreciate you're implying that you think at least some of your
> contacts are idiots? :-)

I have a few Aunt Tillies on my contact list.

> The thing is, "absolutely necessary" - as you describe it later -
> means different things to different people, and it seems pretty
> obvious to me that you wouldn't be in dnd mode if you weren't
> available to at least some degree. The problem is that it's difficult
> to know what degree that is.
>
>
> > I think the solution, really, would be the flashing red lights and
> > 'do you feel lucky punk' as Pedro said. Ultimately this takes:
> >
> > 1. The client (program) who is in do not disturb mode to:
> > a. Provide non-intrusive and brief alerts.
>
> This seems sensible - so you'd essentially tell your client not to
> disturb you.
>
>
> > b. Allow the user to respond with a predefined message by
> > interacting (a la attended predefined response, Nimbuzz has
> > something like these).
>
> I hadn't a clue what Nimbuzz is....

Only free (and decent) native Windows Mobile XMPP client I can find :(. And the Windows Mobile JVMs are a memory hog and poorly integrated.

> In any case, there's no real need for this - sticking yourself in dnd
> is not a one-bit datum, you can provide all sorts of information in
> the <status/>, or in various exciting PEP things, to provide useful
> information as to *why* you're "dnd", and avoid auto-replies of this
> nature entirely.

I know this goes against the grain of XMPP, but how about making the clients a bit more intelligent. A user would set up states that they can associate with different XMPP states.
For example (The auto responses must be initiated by the user):

On the phone : Away : I am on the phone right now, I will get back to you OR I am on the phone, but nearly done.
In a meeting : DND : I am in a meeting OR I am in a meeting + [suppress messages].
Driving : DND : [suppress messages]

I am sure you get the idea. I should actually write a list of these ideas down...

> Let me explain in a more clarificational manner by way of an
> expositional example:
>
> ...

Rolling on the floor with laughter (ROTFL just doesn't do it justice). I see your point though, this is a one-sided solution: no need to annoy the other user if you are protected from his drivels.

>
> Dave.
> --
> Dave Cridland - mailto:dave (AT) cridland (DOT) net - xmpp:dwd (AT) dave (DOT) cridland.net
> - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
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[Remko Tronçon]

> I have a few Aunt Tillies on my contact list.

There's a difference in treating your users as if they were stupid,
and being user-friendly. Having a chat dialog starting with "Your
contact is away", and then still popping up "The user is away, are you
sure you want to send a dialog" when you try to send him/her a message
is telling the user he is an idiot, and is annoying for those who are
not.


> I am sure you get the idea.

Actually, call me stupid, but I don't.

cheers,
Remko
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[Dave Cridland]

On Tue Jul 1 17:10:14 2008, Jonathan Dickinson wrote:
> I know this goes against the grain of XMPP, but how about making
> the clients a bit more intelligent. A user would set up states that
> they can associate with different XMPP states.
> For example (The auto responses must be initiated by the user):
>
>
But why do these need to be auto-responses at all, why not presence
settings?


> On the phone : Away : I am on the phone right now, I will get back
> to you OR I am on the phone, but nearly done.

<presence><show>away</show><status>On the phone</status></presence>


> In a meeting : DND : I am in a meeting OR I am in a meeting +
> [suppress messages].

<presence><show>dnd</show><status>In a meeting</status></presence>


> Driving : DND : [suppress messages]

<presence><show>dnd</show><status>Driving</status></presence>



> I am sure you get the idea. I should actually write a list of these
> ideas down...

I get the idea, I just don't get why.

Dave.
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[Jonathan Dickinson]

Attended responses could be infinitely useful. Given that some users do not take notice of what is presented to them, you can simply give them a friendly predefined reminder (but the receiver has to initiate it).

Agh, it's nit picking. Close this thread...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org [mailto:jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org] On
> Behalf Of Dave Cridland
> Sent: 01 July 2008 08:40 PM
> To: Jabber/XMPP software development list
> Subject: Re: [jdev] Do Not Disturb, Directed Presence, etc
>
> On Tue Jul 1 17:10:14 2008, Jonathan Dickinson wrote:
> > I know this goes against the grain of XMPP, but how about making
> > the clients a bit more intelligent. A user would set up states that
> > they can associate with different XMPP states.
> > For example (The auto responses must be initiated by the user):
> >
> >
> But why do these need to be auto-responses at all, why not presence
> settings?
>
>
> > On the phone : Away : I am on the phone right now, I will get back
> > to you OR I am on the phone, but nearly done.
>
> <presence><show>away</show><status>On the phone</status></presence>
>
>
> > In a meeting : DND : I am in a meeting OR I am in a meeting +
> > [suppress messages].
>
> <presence><show>dnd</show><status>In a meeting</status></presence>
>
>
> > Driving : DND : [suppress messages]
>
> <presence><show>dnd</show><status>Driving</status></presence>
>
>
>
> > I am sure you get the idea. I should actually write a list of these
> > ideas down...
>
> I get the idea, I just don't get why.
>
> Dave.
> --
> Dave Cridland - mailto:dave (AT) cridland (DOT) net - xmpp:dwd (AT) dave (DOT) cridland.net
> - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
> - http://dave.cridland.net/
> Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade
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