[jdev] [OT] XMPP icons

[Pedro Melo]

Hi,

in case you need XMPP logo icons, I converted the SVG to PNGs
512x512, 256x256, 128x128 and 64x64, both regular and crushed, with
alpha channel.

You can find them here:

http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.html

and in a ZIP here:

http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.zip

I've also sent them to Peter, in case he wants to make this available
at the xmpp.org site.

Best regards,
--
Pedro Melo
Blog: http://www.simplicidade.org/notes/
XMPP ID: melo (AT) simplicidade (DOT) org
Use XMPP!


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[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/4 Pedro Melo <melo (AT) simplicidade (DOT) org>:
> Hi,
>
> in case you need XMPP logo icons, I converted the SVG to PNGs
> 512x512, 256x256, 128x128 and 64x64, both regular and crushed, with
> alpha channel.
>
> You can find them here:
>
> http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.html
>
> and in a ZIP here:
>
> http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.zip
>
> I've also sent them to Peter, in case he wants to make this available
> at the xmpp.org site.

Please find attached another version of the logo. There also exists a
Tango version which you can find in Pidgin. PS: if someone could
contribute an Oxygen version of the logo for Coccinella that would be
really fine!

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.

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[naw]

El Viernes 04 Julio 2008, Sander Devrieze escribió:
> 2008/7/4 Pedro Melo <melo (AT) simplicidade (DOT) org>:
> > Hi,
> >
> > in case you need XMPP logo icons, I converted the SVG to PNGs
> > 512x512, 256x256, 128x128 and 64x64, both regular and crushed, with
> > alpha channel.
> >
> > You can find them here:
> >
> > http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.html
> >
> > and in a ZIP here:
> >
> > http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.zip
> >
> > I've also sent them to Peter, in case he wants to make this available
> > at the xmpp.org site.
>
> Please find attached another version of the logo. There also exists a
> Tango version which you can find in Pidgin. PS: if someone could
> contribute an Oxygen version of the logo for Coccinella that would be
> really fine!

But the official icon for applications should be the jabber bulb, or the xmpp
X? should the apps be renamed from "jabber client" to "xmpp client"?

I think that most apps use the bulb and are called "jabber client" but pidgin
doesn't, wich is a bit confusing.

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[Lastwebpage]

I am a litte bit confuse too.
I never seen this XMPP X anywhere, execept for the xmpp.org site and maybe wikipedia.com .
But the clients connect to the XMPP based jabber network, therefore, in my opinion, the bulb icon is okay.

Peter

[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/4 naw <lambda512 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
> El Viernes 04 Julio 2008, Sander Devrieze escribió:
>> 2008/7/4 Pedro Melo <melo (AT) simplicidade (DOT) org>:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > in case you need XMPP logo icons, I converted the SVG to PNGs
>> > 512x512, 256x256, 128x128 and 64x64, both regular and crushed, with
>> > alpha channel.
>> >
>> > You can find them here:
>> >
>> > http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.html
>> >
>> > and in a ZIP here:
>> >
>> > http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.zip
>> >
>> > I've also sent them to Peter, in case he wants to make this available
>> > at the xmpp.org site.
>>
>> Please find attached another version of the logo. There also exists a
>> Tango version which you can find in Pidgin. PS: if someone could
>> contribute an Oxygen version of the logo for Coccinella that would be
>> really fine!
>
> But the official icon for applications should be the jabber bulb, or the xmpp
> X? should the apps be renamed from "jabber client" to "xmpp client"?
>
> I think that most apps use the bulb and are called "jabber client" but pidgin
> doesn't, wich is a bit confusing.

Coccinella also will change to use the "XMPP logo" as the bulb is confusing.

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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[Jehan]

What about this little bulb? For my own, I like it... or at least I prefer it to this big "X" which looks really marketing to me (more than the bulb)...

Jehan

[naw]

El Sábado 05 Julio 2008, JabberForum escribió:
> What about this little bulb? For my own, I like it... or at least I
> prefer it to this big "X" which looks really marketing to me (more than
> the bulb)...
>

I also prefer "Jabber" and the bulb to "XMPP" and the X. And I think that for
the average user "Jabber" is more appealing than "XMPP". There is also a user
base that knows the system as "Jabber"

I don't like the idea of changing "Jabber" to "XMPP"
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[Travis Shirk]

On Sat, 2008-07-05 at 01:24 +0200, naw wrote:
> El Sábado 05 Julio 2008, JabberForum escribió:
> > What about this little bulb? For my own, I like it... or at least I
> > prefer it to this big "X" which looks really marketing to me (more than
> > the bulb)...
> >
>
> I also prefer "Jabber" and the bulb to "XMPP" and the X. And I think that for
> the average user "Jabber" is more appealing than "XMPP". There is also a user
> base that knows the system as "Jabber"
>
> I don't like the idea of changing "Jabber" to "XMPP"

Me neither, especially when the reasons turn religious. Perhaps someone
should mandate the notation Jabber/XMPP ;)

-travis

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[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/5 naw <lambda512 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
> El Sábado 05 Julio 2008, JabberForum escribió:
>> What about this little bulb? For my own, I like it... or at least I
>> prefer it to this big "X" which looks really marketing to me (more than
>> the bulb)...
>>
>
> I also prefer "Jabber" and the bulb to "XMPP" and the X.

The bulb is confusing because people associate it with the jabber.org
website. They think they need to register an account on that website
and they forget there are other good services.

> And I think that for
> the average user "Jabber" is more appealing than "XMPP". There is also a user
> base that knows the system as "Jabber"
>
> I don't like the idea of changing "Jabber" to "XMPP"

The title tag on the Coccinella website was changed to "Instant
Messaging Client with Whiteboard". The old title tag was something
like "Jabber Client with Whiteboard". "Instant messaging client" is
better known to non-geek users than "Jabber client" or "XMPP client".
The idea is to slowly remove *all* references to both "Jabber" and
"XMPP" on the website and in Coccinella. We will call us "open
standards based" instead, with an XMPP logo button next to it with a
link to http://www.xmpp.org/ or preferably a directory with XMPP
software.

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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[Peter Flindt (Lastwebpage)]

Sander Devrieze wrote on 05.07.2008 n Message
<7b06a4100807050020u9d4969bg8a0b23fad2a015d (AT) mail (DOT) gmail.com> :
> 2008/7/5 naw <lambda512 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
>> El Sábado 05 Julio 2008, JabberForum escribió:
>>> What about this little bulb? For my own, I like it... or at least I
>>> prefer it to this big "X" which looks really marketing to me (more than
>>> the bulb)...
>>>
>>
>> I also prefer "Jabber" and the bulb to "XMPP" and the X.

> The bulb is confusing because people associate it with the jabber.org
> website. They think they need to register an account on that website
> and they forget there are other good services.

Sorry, I don't understand, where I can register an account on
www.xmpp.org?

Where is the problem with the jabber.org site?
There is nowhere a registration field on jabber.org, except for the
mailing lists and the forum.

Peter



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[Jehan]

The title tag on the Coccinella website was changed to "Instant
Messaging Client with Whiteboard". The old title tag was something
like "Jabber Client with Whiteboard". "Instant messaging client" is
better known to non-geek users than "Jabber client" or "XMPP client".
The idea is to slowly remove *all* references to both "Jabber" and
"XMPP" on the website and in Coccinella. We will call us "open
standards based" instead, with an XMPP logo button next to it with a
link to http://www.xmpp.org/ or preferably a directory with XMPP
software.

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.

Ok... I understand the idea of making Jabber name disappear to say "this is not any kind of network, just the instant messaging standard". Just like you speak of email, which is not a network but an electronic mail.
Yet somehow, in my deep, I find it sad, but probably some poetic part of me.

But then I have a funny question for instance: when you have a Jabber autodiscovery link, when it will be sufficiently a standard so that browser will take it in account... what will be the icon appearing on the page? You know, like the rss icon -- some kind of orange radar wave -- which appears at right of the url when there is a rss autodiscovery? Just close to it, there could be another icon for Jabber/XMPP: should it be the X? The bulb? Something else? :D

Jehan

[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/5 Lastwebpage Peter Flindt <lastwebpage (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
> Sander Devrieze wrote on 05.07.2008 n Message
> <7b06a4100807050020u9d4969bg8a0b23fad2a015d (AT) mail (DOT) gmail.com> :
>> 2008/7/5 naw <lambda512 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
>>> El Sábado 05 Julio 2008, JabberForum escribió:
>>>> What about this little bulb? For my own, I like it... or at least I
>>>> prefer it to this big "X" which looks really marketing to me (more than
>>>> the bulb)...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I also prefer "Jabber" and the bulb to "XMPP" and the X.
>
>> The bulb is confusing because people associate it with the jabber.org
>> website. They think they need to register an account on that website
>> and they forget there are other good services.
>
> Sorry, I don't understand, where I can register an account on
> www.xmpp.org?

Nowhere!

> Where is the problem with the jabber.org site?
> There is nowhere a registration field on jabber.org, except for the
> mailing lists and the forum.

jabber.org is dedicated at end users and xmpp.org not. Stupid users
will cleary see that www.xmpp.org is not the place where they have to
register an account...there is no doubt about that as that site is too
technical...this is not true for www.jabber.org

Besides that, xmpp.org is a website about the protocol and no XMPP
service. If we link to jabber.org (which is an XMPP service), this is
not fair for other XMPP based services. We prefer to link to an
independent site that lists XMPP compatible services, clients,
libraries, and server software.

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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[Peter Flindt (Lastwebpage)]

Sander Devrieze wrote on 05.07.2008 n Message
<7b06a4100807050223i1c1602aaldf3c3b1ea6096474 (AT) mail (DOT) gmail.com> :
> 2008/7/5 Lastwebpage Peter Flindt <lastwebpage (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
>> Sander Devrieze wrote on 05.07.2008 n Message
>> <7b06a4100807050020u9d4969bg8a0b23fad2a015d (AT) mail (DOT) gmail.com> :
>>> 2008/7/5 naw <lambda512 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
>>>> El Sábado 05 Julio 2008, JabberForum escribió:
>>>>> What about this little bulb? For my own, I like it... or at least I
>>>>> prefer it to this big "X" which looks really marketing to me (more than
>>>>> the bulb)...
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also prefer "Jabber" and the bulb to "XMPP" and the X.
>>> The bulb is confusing because people associate it with the jabber.org
>>> website. They think they need to register an account on that website
>>> and they forget there are other good services.
>>
>> Sorry, I don't understand, where I can register an account on
>> www.xmpp.org?

> Nowhere!

I only wanted to say that there is no jabber acount registration on
both pages. But if the user searched for any registration form on both
pages they can find it. (registration for a blog and mailinglist are on
both sites)
Therfore I am not sure if the site xmpp.org not "produce" the same
problem. If the user find somewhere a link to xmpp, or it's associated
with help of the icon, it make no differents.

Peter



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[Remko Tronçon]

> Coccinella also will change to use the "XMPP logo" as the bulb is confusing.

*Sigh*, another XMPP vs Jabber discussion, only this time disguised in
a logo discussion? Jabber vs. XMPP discussions never come to a
conclusion, so I doubt that the 'Bulb logo' versus 'XMPP logo' will
come to an end.

By the way, it's the first time I hear that a bulb is associated with
a jabber.org account, and even more, that 'associating jabber clients
with jabber.org is confusing/bad for Jabber'. Usually, it is
jabber.com that is the cause of discussion.

cheers,
Remko
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[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/6 Remko Tronçon <remko (AT) el-tramo (DOT) be>:
>> Coccinella also will change to use the "XMPP logo" as the bulb is confusing.
>
> *Sigh*, another XMPP vs Jabber discussion, only this time disguised in
> a logo discussion? Jabber vs. XMPP discussions never come to a
> conclusion, so I doubt that the 'Bulb logo' versus 'XMPP logo' will
> come to an end.

There's no need for a conclusion or a useless ongoing discussion:
Coccinella *is* moving to XMPP. AFAIR the process started about a year
ago and so far no related usability troubles showed up. The XSF
Council didn't had any interested into making a decision about this
usability bug, even after I asked a few times, so we made the decision
ourselves. Discussion closed.

btw: XMPP banners are another thing on my TODO list (can take some
time!), I also already contacted the XSF Council about this matter,
but so far there is no feedback, again. So if nothing happens, there
will be a banner campaign using the XMPP logo by the Coccinella
project. Not as official as such a campaign by the XSF, but it makes
no sense to wait forever...

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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[viq]

On 7/6/08, Remko Tronçon <remko (AT) el-tramo (DOT) be> wrote:
>> Coccinella also will change to use the "XMPP logo" as the bulb is
>> confusing.
>
> *Sigh*, another XMPP vs Jabber discussion, only this time disguised in
> a logo discussion? Jabber vs. XMPP discussions never come to a
> conclusion, so I doubt that the 'Bulb logo' versus 'XMPP logo' will
> come to an end.

Sounds like time for someone to come up with "XMPP Bulb Logo" ;)

> By the way, it's the first time I hear that a bulb is associated with
> a jabber.org account, and even more, that 'associating jabber clients
> with jabber.org is confusing/bad for Jabber'. Usually, it is
> jabber.com that is the cause of discussion.
>
> cheers,
> Remko
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>


--
viq
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[Neil Stevens]

viq wrote:
> On 7/6/08, Remko Tronçon <remko (AT) el-tramo (DOT) be> wrote:
>>> Coccinella also will change to use the "XMPP logo" as the bulb is
>>> confusing.
>> *Sigh*, another XMPP vs Jabber discussion, only this time disguised in
>> a logo discussion? Jabber vs. XMPP discussions never come to a
>> conclusion, so I doubt that the 'Bulb logo' versus 'XMPP logo' will
>> come to an end.
>
> Sounds like time for someone to come up with "XMPP Bulb Logo" ;)

Hey, you got XMPP in my bulb!

Hey, you got bulb in my XMPP!
--
Neil Stevens - neil (AT) hakubi (DOT) us

If you're seeing shades of gray, it's because you're not
looking close enough to see the black and white dots.


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[Jonathan Dickinson]

I think this is a good idea. Sander has enlightened me to GTalk's success, it is because they don't confuse users with terms such as Jabber and XMPP, however, it is important to remember your roots. How about having a 'slogan' under "Instant Messaging Client with Whiteboard" saying "Powered by Jabber/XMPP"? It's right there in the title keeping the nerds happy, without confusing Aunt Tillies.

Sander, do a quick google search for "XMPP Client": you will see that Pandion is higher on the list than all clients except GTalk, but (IIRC) it is a dead project (and has not worked with j.o for a very long time). WTF? I think we all need a reference to XMPP on our landing pages in order to help searchers and (less than perfect) search engines.

And make a hyperlink to http://www.jabber.org/clients in all your blogs to give that page a nice Google page rank ;).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org [mailto:jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org] On
> Behalf Of Sander Devrieze
> Sent: 05 July 2008 09:21 AM
> To: Jabber/XMPP software development list
> Subject: Re: [jdev] [OT] XMPP icons
>
> 2008/7/5 naw <lambda512 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
> > El Sábado 05 Julio 2008, JabberForum escribió:
> >> What about this little bulb? For my own, I like it... or at least I
> >> prefer it to this big "X" which looks really marketing to me (more
> than
> >> the bulb)...
> >>
> >
> > I also prefer "Jabber" and the bulb to "XMPP" and the X.
>
> The bulb is confusing because people associate it with the jabber.org
> website. They think they need to register an account on that website
> and they forget there are other good services.
>
> > And I think that for
> > the average user "Jabber" is more appealing than "XMPP". There is
> also a user
> > base that knows the system as "Jabber"
> >
> > I don't like the idea of changing "Jabber" to "XMPP"
>
> The title tag on the Coccinella website was changed to "Instant
> Messaging Client with Whiteboard". The old title tag was something
> like "Jabber Client with Whiteboard". "Instant messaging client" is
> better known to non-geek users than "Jabber client" or "XMPP client".
> The idea is to slowly remove *all* references to both "Jabber" and
> "XMPP" on the website and in Coccinella. We will call us "open
> standards based" instead, with an XMPP logo button next to it with a
> link to http://www.xmpp.org/ or preferably a directory with XMPP
> software.
>
> --
> Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
> _______________________________________________
> JDev mailing list
> FAQ: http://www.jabber.org/discussion-lists/jdev-faq
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[Jehan]

I think this is a good idea. Sander has enlightened me to GTalk's success, it is because they don't confuse users with terms such as Jabber and XMPP, however, it is important to remember your roots. How about having a 'slogan' under "Instant Messaging Client with Whiteboard" saying "Powered by Jabber/XMPP"? It's right there in the title keeping the nerds happy, without confusing Aunt Tillies.


I really cannot agree to all the last emails about whether XMPP or Jabber is a better name. For me, XMPP is simply the technical name, something which doesn't sound a bell for anyone. It is the standardized name because the word "Jabber" is not "hype" enough, it does not sound hightech and futuristic technogoly. But Jabber was remaining the "community" name because it is easy to say... and I would even say: it is funny to say, which is really important for a word to spread. So I don't understand why there is a discussion about one of the term which must disappear for the other's profit!!! They simply have different approach, hence different public. I will never say "XMPP" to a common user I just want to discuss with (I will use "Jabber". But I will use it for speaking about the standard.

But don't make me say what I haven't. I perfectly can understand the idea of both term disappearing for staying at the end with the generic term "instant messaging" in order to say: "this is the right open standard for IM" (as I already said). But I don't understand the idea of one being better than the other, simply different.

As for Gtalk, I am not a hightech analyst or what, but I am pretty sure that the absence of them speaking about XMPP or Jabber is NOT the reason (not even one of them) why they succeeded. They succeeded because they are Google and that people have a very good opinion on all their technologies (and most of the time, they are right to have good opinion), because Gtalk is bundled in Gmail which is one of the best, famous and most used webmail, etc. Moreover they indeed don't tell terms like Jabber or XMPP, but they use "Gtalk". This is the same, except that they somehow appropriate themselves the network; they still use a nominating term. Gtalk users do not say "what is your IM address?", but "what is your Gtalk address?". So as long as we don't ask the generic version, then I would have prefered Gtalk users to say: "what is your Jabber address?".
And I really not see how the term "Jabber" could have anything confusing, in order to differenciate from proprietary networks, waiting for it to become really the used standard everywhere.

Jehan

[Jonathan Dickinson]

I think the main problem (I am no expert) is that most average people see websites as atomical. They connect to live.com and are provided with a IM client that brands itself as live.com etc. The same goes for Hotmail/Gmail/etc.

Jabber can be confusing in that most users are used to connecting to an instant messaging client and only seeing contacts from that realm, unless they use clients like digsby/trillian/etc (which I WOULD THINK are mostly used by the 'less-informed' technically inclined users).

By branding your website with "Instant Messaging (powered by Jabber/XMPP)" you achieve a few goals:

1. Aunt Tillie sees "Instant Messaging" and that is enough for her. She may even see that she can communicate with all her book-club friends that use older protocols like AIM/MSN/etc. and is wooed into downloading a jabber client.
2. Up-and-coming nerd wants to migrate to Jabber/XMPP and either searches for "Jabber client" or "XMPP client": both would get him hits on your page. He notices the "Jabber/XMPP" affiliation and downloads your client (this was me and Pandion when I first came across XMPP).
3. XMPP-addict comes across your website and thinks "cool, this looks like a nice client".

It is enough information without scaring off potential newbies, as well as promoting Jabber/XMPP (remember, some may only know it as one of the two: it doesn't matter which).

As I said I help out a lot of Aunt Tillies, and I am familiar with the way they think.

> And I really not see how the term "Jabber" could have anything
> confusing, in order to differenciate from proprietary networks, waiting
> for it to become really the used standard everywhere.

Jabber does not mean "Instant Messaging" to newcomers, if you want it to be used everywhere you need to tell people what it is!!!

If you go to messenger.live.com the first words you will probably see are "Messenger" and a quick scan reveals "Instantly connect". Visit Coccinella and you get "Chat Client". WHOA! Now the user really needs to decide. Apon further reading they realise that MSN can only communicate with MSN, where Coccinella can communicate with everyone. MSN: 0, XMPP: 1. Now visit the Jabbim website, and the user is presented with confusing terms like XMPP and Jabber, which they have never heard before. MSN: 1, XMPP: 0.

It doesn't matter if Aunt Tillie knows if she is using XMPP or not, as long as she is. And if someone asks her if she is she will be pleasantly surprised that she is, indeed, using Jabber/XMPP.

Corporate identity people. Look at Apple, taken out of context (as a newcomer) you would probably think that they are a fruit and veg company...
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[Andreas Monitzer]

On Jul 07, 2008, at 11:13, Jonathan Dickinson wrote:

> I think the main problem (I am no expert) is that most average
> people see websites as atomical. They connect to live.com and are
> provided with a IM client that brands itself as live.com etc. The
> same goes for Hotmail/Gmail/etc.
>
> Jabber can be confusing in that most users are used to connecting to
> an instant messaging client and only seeing contacts from that
> realm, unless they use clients like digsby/trillian/etc (which I
> WOULD THINK are mostly used by the 'less-informed' technically
> inclined users).

Well, people on Gmail or Hotmail don't assume that they can only email
Gmail or Hotmail people. Somehow, it works in that domain. You have to
somehow transfer that public knowledge to this new domain.

andy

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[Jonathan Dickinson]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org [mailto:jdev-bounces (AT) jabber (DOT) org] On
> Behalf Of Andreas Monitzer
> Sent: 07 July 2008 11:23 AM
> To: Jabber/XMPP software development list
> Subject: Re: [jdev] [OT] XMPP icons
>
> ...
>
> Well, people on Gmail or Hotmail don't assume that they can only email
> Gmail or Hotmail people. Somehow, it works in that domain. You have to
> somehow transfer that public knowledge to this new domain.
>

Exactly!!! And we do that by first and foremost informing all potential users that Jabber is an IM protocol. They will move on from the page if they can only tell that the program is a Jabber/XMPP client and have no idea what Jabber/XMPP is.

> andy
>
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[Remko Tronçon]

> I really cannot agree to all the last emails about whether XMPP or
> Jabber is a better name.

And, as expected, here we go again. Please look at previous threads
(there's one every half year or so), and see how they die down without
any conclusions after many people wasted a lot of time they could have
spent on developing XMPP software. It'll save you quite a bit of time.

Remko
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[Dave Cridland]

On Sun Jul 6 08:57:26 2008, Sander Devrieze wrote:
> 2008/7/6 Remko Tronçon <remko (AT) el-tramo (DOT) be>:
> >> Coccinella also will change to use the "XMPP logo" as the bulb
> is confusing.
> >
> > *Sigh*, another XMPP vs Jabber discussion, only this time
> disguised in
> > a logo discussion? Jabber vs. XMPP discussions never come to a
> > conclusion, so I doubt that the 'Bulb logo' versus 'XMPP logo'
> will
> > come to an end.
>
> There's no need for a conclusion or a useless ongoing discussion:
> Coccinella *is* moving to XMPP. AFAIR the process started about a
> year
> ago and so far no related usability troubles showed up. The XSF
> Council didn't had any interested into making a decision about this
> usability bug, even after I asked a few times, so we made the
> decision
> ourselves. Discussion closed.
>
>
I'd have thought that rested very specifically with the board, not
the council.

That said, how did you contact the council? I don't remember anything
on the Council list, for example.


> btw: XMPP banners are another thing on my TODO list (can take some
> time!), I also already contacted the XSF Council about this matter,
> but so far there is no feedback, again. So if nothing happens, there
> will be a banner campaign using the XMPP logo by the Coccinella
> project. Not as official as such a campaign by the XSF, but it makes
> no sense to wait forever...

Again, I don't personally recall any contact, so that would explain
the lack of feedback on my part, at least...

But again, this would be a board matter - you ought to re-raise this
on the XSF's Members list, or send it to the XSF Board list directly.
The Council is intended for technical matters, and what we call the
protocol doesn't impact interoperability at all. Besides, the amount
of waffling we do over stuff we're *meant* to be discussing is quite
enough.

Further discussion about what to call the protocol, what icon to use,
etc, may invoke a total failure on my part to take anything
seriously, for which I apologise in advance - Sander's suggestion
that the XSF could do some more traditional advertising might,
however, be a quite sensible thing to discuss.

Dave.
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- http://dave.cridland.net/
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade
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[Jehan]

> I really cannot agree to all the last emails about whether XMPP or
> Jabber is a better name.

And, as expected, here we go again. Please look at previous threads
(there's one every half year or so), and see how they die down without
any conclusions after many people wasted a lot of time they could have
spent on developing XMPP software. It'll save you quite a bit of time.

Remko

Hum... let's be honest: you brought this up! ;-) I didn't even know there was such a naming discussion and, as I said, I don't really see the interest of having to absolutely have to choose one name or another (so as I don't care, no I won't look for previous threads). In fact this is even what you are quoting from me! Fortunately I also said "But don't make me say what I haven't.". :p

Jehan

[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/7 Jonathan Dickinson <jonathanD (AT) k2 (DOT) com>:
> I think this is a good idea. Sander has enlightened me to GTalk's success, it is because they don't confuse users with terms such as Jabber and XMPP, however, it is important to remember your roots. How about having a 'slogan' under "Instant Messaging Client with Whiteboard" saying "Powered by Jabber/XMPP"? It's right there in the title keeping the nerds happy, without confusing Aunt Tillies.

Yup, that's the banner idea. It's like the logos representing Mac OS X
and Windows that you see on software boxes and hardware.

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[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/7 Dave Cridland <dave (AT) cridland (DOT) net>:
<snip>
> That said, how did you contact the council? I don't remember anything
> on the Council list, for example.
<snip>

AFAIK that list is private and read-only for the public. (I did send
an email or IM to stpeter and maybe someone else)

> But again, this would be a board matter - you ought to re-raise this
> on the XSF's Members list,

You need to be a member for doing that.

> or send it to the XSF Board list directly.

I did send it to the big boss himself ;-)

<snip>

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[Peter Saint-Andre]

Sander Devrieze wrote:
> 2008/7/5 naw <lambda512 (AT) gmail (DOT) com>:
>> El Sábado 05 Julio 2008, JabberForum escribió:
>>> What about this little bulb? For my own, I like it... or at least I
>>> prefer it to this big "X" which looks really marketing to me (more than
>>> the bulb)...
>>>
>> I also prefer "Jabber" and the bulb to "XMPP" and the X.
>
> The bulb is confusing because people associate it with the jabber.org
> website.

They do? Have you completed usability studies about this?

> They think they need to register an account on that website
> and they forget there are other good services.

Got evidence?

/psa



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[Peter Saint-Andre]

Jonathan Dickinson wrote:

> It doesn't matter if Aunt Tillie knows if she is using XMPP or not,
> as long as she is. And if someone asks her if she is she will be
> pleasantly surprised that she is, indeed, using Jabber/XMPP.

Exactly!

/psa

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[Peter Saint-Andre]

Pedro Melo wrote:
> Hi,
>
> in case you need XMPP logo icons, I converted the SVG to PNGs
> 512x512, 256x256, 128x128 and 64x64, both regular and crushed, with
> alpha channel.
>
> You can find them here:
>
> http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.html
>
> and in a ZIP here:
>
> http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.zip
>
> I've also sent them to Peter, in case he wants to make this available
> at the xmpp.org site.

Thanks, Pedro, I'll add them to SVN at xmpp.org.

/psa


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[Peter Saint-Andre]

Sander Devrieze wrote:
> 2008/7/7 Dave Cridland <dave (AT) cridland (DOT) net>:
> <snip>
>> That said, how did you contact the council? I don't remember anything
>> on the Council list, for example.
> <snip>
>
> AFAIK that list is private and read-only for the public.

True.

> (I did send
> an email or IM to stpeter and maybe someone else)

You're always sending me IMs. :P

>> But again, this would be a board matter - you ought to re-raise this
>> on the XSF's Members list,
>
> You need to be a member for doing that.

And to be a member, you need to apply, which you have never done.

>> or send it to the XSF Board list directly.
>
> I did send it to the big boss himself ;-)

The Board has an agenda item to discuss logo licensing tomorrow.

Peter

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[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/7 Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter (AT) stpeter (DOT) im>:
<snip>
>> (I did send
>> an email or IM to stpeter and maybe someone else)
>
> You're always sending me IMs. :P

I'm sure I already send you at least 1 email! :D

>>> But again, this would be a board matter - you ought to re-raise this
>>> on the XSF's Members list,
>>
>> You need to be a member for doing that.
>
> And to be a member, you need to apply, which you have never done.

I'm not interesteded in that.

>>> or send it to the XSF Board list directly.
>>
>> I did send it to the big boss himself ;-)
>
> The Board has an agenda item to discuss logo licensing tomorrow.

Great!

--
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[Peter Saint-Andre]

Sander Devrieze wrote:
> 2008/7/7 Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter (AT) stpeter (DOT) im>:
> <snip>
>>> (I did send
>>> an email or IM to stpeter and maybe someone else)
>> You're always sending me IMs. :P
>
> I'm sure I already send you at least 1 email! :D

Probably that, too.

>>>> But again, this would be a board matter - you ought to re-raise this
>>>> on the XSF's Members list,
>>> You need to be a member for doing that.
>> And to be a member, you need to apply, which you have never done.
>
> I'm not interesteded in that.

You are interested in influencing the policies of the XSF, but you are
not interested in becoming a member of the XSF (enabling you to
influence those policies direct), so you try to influence the XSF
indiretly through me. Perhaps there would be more productive ways for
you to proceed.

/psa



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[Peter Saint-Andre]

naw wrote:
> El Viernes 04 Julio 2008, Sander Devrieze escribió:
>> 2008/7/4 Pedro Melo <melo (AT) simplicidade (DOT) org>:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> in case you need XMPP logo icons, I converted the SVG to PNGs
>>> 512x512, 256x256, 128x128 and 64x64, both regular and crushed, with
>>> alpha channel.
>>>
>>> You can find them here:
>>>
>>> http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.html
>>>
>>> and in a ZIP here:
>>>
>>> http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.zip
>>>
>>> I've also sent them to Peter, in case he wants to make this available
>>> at the xmpp.org site.
>> Please find attached another version of the logo. There also exists a
>> Tango version which you can find in Pidgin. PS: if someone could
>> contribute an Oxygen version of the logo for Coccinella that would be
>> really fine!
>
> But the official icon for applications should be the jabber bulb, or the xmpp
> X? should the apps be renamed from "jabber client" to "xmpp client"?
>
> I think that most apps use the bulb and are called "jabber client" but pidgin
> doesn't, wich is a bit confusing.

IMHO:

Jabber is to XMPP as the Web is to HTTP.

Geeks talk about HTTP, but end users talk about web browsers and web sites.

Geeks talk about XMPP, but end users talk about Jabber clients (or just
IM clients).

Therefore I think it is best for end-user clients to use the term
"Jabber". This is more user-friendly and less geeky for Aunt Tillie.

That said, I am an individualist and I value decentralization, so if
particular IM clients want to call it XMPP instead of Jabber, that's
their business. But I reserve the right to boycott them. :)

Peter



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[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/7 Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter (AT) stpeter (DOT) im>:
> naw wrote:
>>
>> El Viernes 04 Julio 2008, Sander Devrieze escribió:
>>>
>>> 2008/7/4 Pedro Melo <melo (AT) simplicidade (DOT) org>:
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> in case you need XMPP logo icons, I converted the SVG to PNGs
>>>> 512x512, 256x256, 128x128 and 64x64, both regular and crushed, with
>>>> alpha channel.
>>>>
>>>> You can find them here:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.html
>>>>
>>>> and in a ZIP here:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.simplicidade.org/me/xmpp.zip
>>>>
>>>> I've also sent them to Peter, in case he wants to make this available
>>>> at the xmpp.org site.
>>>
>>> Please find attached another version of the logo. There also exists a
>>> Tango version which you can find in Pidgin. PS: if someone could
>>> contribute an Oxygen version of the logo for Coccinella that would be
>>> really fine!
>>
>> But the official icon for applications should be the jabber bulb, or the
>> xmpp X? should the apps be renamed from "jabber client" to "xmpp client"?
>>
>> I think that most apps use the bulb and are called "jabber client" but
>> pidgin doesn't, wich is a bit confusing.
>
> IMHO:
>
> Jabber is to XMPP as the Web is to HTTP.

Right

> Geeks talk about HTTP, but end users talk about web browsers and web sites.

Wrong. When end users read "http://www.example.org/", they will
*associate* this with the address of a website!

> Geeks talk about XMPP, but end users talk about Jabber clients (or just IM
> clients).

Semi-wrong: the part between brackets is right.

> Therefore I think it is best for end-user clients to use the term "Jabber".
> This is more user-friendly and less geeky for Aunt Tillie.

Neither "Jabber" not "XMPP" should be used IMHO. Let them use the term
"instant messaging", but make them *associate* the term "XMPP" with
"instant messaging". When people (both geeks and end users) see the
term "XMPP" and/or the logo on a website or in some software, they
should directly associate it with interoperability, open standard,
instant messaging, not getting locked in a walled garden, and so
forth.

Summary:
1) "HTTP" versus "XMPP": association with open standard for Web/IM
2) globe logo versus XMPP wings logo: association with open standard for Web/IM
3) Web/website/web browser/web server/... versus Instant
messaging/instant messaging address (or Contact ID)/instant messaging
client/instant messaging server: what people use in daily life
4) Goal of using the XMPP wings logo or the term "XMPP": get people to
actually *associate* both with the one and only good way of
interroperable instant messaging ;-) So, people don't need to actually
call your service/client/server an "XMPP service"/"XMPP client"/"XMPP
server". People only should make the association that your
service/client/server is interroperable/open/open standard/good/not
evil/great/fantastic/amazing/you know

> That said, I am an individualist and I value decentralization, so if
> particular IM clients want to call it XMPP instead of Jabber, that's their
> business. But I reserve the right to boycott them. :)

That's your right, but it's also my right to try to change your mind ;-)

--
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[Peter Flindt (Lastwebpage)]

Peter Saint-Andre wrote on 07.07.2008 n Message
<48726464.2030402 (AT) stpeter (DOT) im> :
> ...
> Therefore I think it is best for end-user clients to use the term
> "Jabber". This is more user-friendly and less geeky for Aunt Tillie.

I am fully agree, I use the IRC network, but I don't chat by using a
rfc1459 client. ;)

> ...



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[Norman Rasmussen]

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 10:47 PM, Lastwebpage Peter Flindt <
lastwebpage (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:
>
> I am fully agree, I use the IRC network, but I don't chat by using a
> rfc1459 client. ;)
>

I can just see it now: Joe's Instant Messenger (POWERED BY RFC3920 and
RFC3921!!!)

--
- Norman Rasmussen
- Email: norman (AT) rasmussen (DOT) co.za
- Home page: http://norman.rasmussen.co.za/

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[Peter Saint-Andre]

Sander Devrieze wrote:
> 2008/7/7 Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter (AT) stpeter (DOT) im>:
>
>> Jabber is to XMPP as the Web is to HTTP.
>
> Right
>
>> Geeks talk about HTTP, but end users talk about web browsers and web sites.
>
> Wrong. When end users read "http://www.example.org/", they will
> *associate* this with the address of a website!

No Sander, you are wrong. Have you *ever* heard a non-geek talk about an
"HTTP client" or "HTTP server"?

>> Geeks talk about XMPP, but end users talk about Jabber clients (or just IM
>> clients).
>
> Semi-wrong: the part between brackets is right.
>
>> Therefore I think it is best for end-user clients to use the term "Jabber".
>> This is more user-friendly and less geeky for Aunt Tillie.
>
> Neither "Jabber" not "XMPP" should be used IMHO. Let them use the term
> "instant messaging", but make them *associate* the term "XMPP" with
> "instant messaging". When people (both geeks and end users) see the
> term "XMPP" and/or the logo on a website or in some software, they
> should directly associate it with interoperability, open standard,
> instant messaging, not getting locked in a walled garden, and so
> forth.

I have no objections to that, for sure.

> Summary:
> 1) "HTTP" versus "XMPP": association with open standard for Web/IM
> 2) globe logo versus XMPP wings logo: association with open standard for Web/IM
> 3) Web/website/web browser/web server/... versus Instant
> messaging/instant messaging address (or Contact ID)/instant messaging
> client/instant messaging server: what people use in daily life
> 4) Goal of using the XMPP wings logo or the term "XMPP": get people to
> actually *associate* both with the one and only good way of
> interroperable instant messaging ;-) So, people don't need to actually
> call your service/client/server an "XMPP service"/"XMPP client"/"XMPP
> server". People only should make the association that your
> service/client/server is interroperable/open/open standard/good/not
> evil/great/fantastic/amazing/you know
>
>> That said, I am an individualist and I value decentralization, so if
>> particular IM clients want to call it XMPP instead of Jabber, that's their
>> business. But I reserve the right to boycott them. :)
>
> That's your right, but it's also my right to try to change your mind ;-)

I prefer IM to Jabber. But for end users I prefer Jabber to XMPP!

/psa


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[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/7 Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter (AT) stpeter (DOT) im>:
> Sander Devrieze wrote:
>>
>> 2008/7/7 Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter (AT) stpeter (DOT) im>:
>>
>>> Jabber is to XMPP as the Web is to HTTP.
>>
>> Right
>>
>>> Geeks talk about HTTP, but end users talk about web browsers and web
>>> sites.
>>
>> Wrong. When end users read "http://www.example.org/", they will
>> *associate* this with the address of a website!
>
> No Sander, you are wrong. Have you *ever* heard a non-geek talk about an
> "HTTP client" or "HTTP server"?

Note the *emphasis* I did put on the word "associate": people don't
need to talk about their "XMPP client"; people *only* should
_associate_ "XMPP" with heaven ;o)

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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[Jehan]

Neither "Jabber" not "XMPP" should be used IMHO. Let them use the term
"instant messaging", but make them *associate* the term "XMPP" with
"instant messaging". When people (both geeks and end users) see the
term "XMPP" and/or the logo on a website or in some software, they
should directly associate it with interoperability, open standard,
instant messaging, not getting locked in a walled garden, and so
forth.


Hum... I would LOVE meet these kind of end users... But usually when they think this way, they are often no more simple end users. Most people don't really care about this, simply because they don't care about computers at all. Most common users don't see how freedom (because this is what open standard, interoperability, etc. is about) and computers can be associated, and even having anything in common... Computers are just tools for them... and I would have liked they were right. Computer should never have taken this much importance, in my opinion (but this is another discussion) so that we have to fight so much for fear of what you call "walled garden" (because we know how dangerous it can be, what most people don't).

Anyway do you think that, when end users think about emails, the web (http/html), irc, etc. they associate this with interoperability and openess? Even a very big part (most?!) of people working with computers don't associate these! So the end users even less!!!

So no I don't know what is the best way to do this all, and probably there are several ways. But this is most probably not one of them.

Jehan

[Sander Devrieze]

2008/7/7 JabberForum <list-jdev (AT) jabberforum (DOT) org>:
>
> Sander Devrieze;1603 Wrote:
>>
>> Neither "Jabber" not "XMPP" should be used IMHO. Let them use the term
>> "instant messaging", but make them *associate* the term "XMPP" with
>> "instant messaging". When people (both geeks and end users) see the
>> term "XMPP" and/or the logo on a website or in some software, they
>> should directly associate it with interoperability, open standard,
>> instant messaging, not getting locked in a walled garden, and so
>> forth.
>>
>
> Hum... I would LOVE meet these kind of end users... But usually when
> they think this way, they are often no more simple end users.

Look behind you: I'm sure you will see someone who thinks this way
regarding the Web ;-)

> Most
> people don't really care about this, simply because they don't care
> about computers at all. Most common users don't see how freedom (because
> this is what open standard, interoperability, etc. is about) and
> computers can be associated, and even having anything in common...
> Computers are just tools for them... and I would have liked they were
> right. Computer should never have taken this much importance, in my
> opinion (but this is another discussion) so that we have to fight so
> much for fear of what you call "walled garden" (because we know how
> dangerous it can be, what most people don't).
>
> Anyway do you think that, when end users think about emails, the web
> (http/html), irc, etc. they associate this with interoperability and
> openess? Even a very big part (most?!) of people working with computers
> don't associate these! So the end users even less!!!

They do: when they read "http://www.example.org/" somewhere (e.g.
magazine), they will know they have to start their computer and hit on
the "blue e icon" on their desktop. Then they will enter the address
in the URL bar (or go to Google first, yes such people exist I heard
:D) and they expect it to work.

<snip>

Off-topic but related: association is also one of the reasons why it
is so hard to get non-geek end users to switch to another operating
system: their computer has a Windows flag logo on it, the hardware
they see when shopping has the same Windows logo on it, the software
they see when shopping has the same Windows flag logo on it, when
running Windows they will see the same flag logo during startup, in
the start button, and on various other places, and so forth. Even
though Linux probably has better built-in hardware support than
Windows, and even though there probably is more good software
available for Linux, people still *feel* Linux being worse on these 2
points because they don't see the penguin Linux logo that much in
their hardware or software shop. PS: for this reason we did put a big
penguin on the downloads page of Coccinella; stupid people downloading
the Windows or Mac OS X versions should see that they can later easily
switch to an OS with a penguin on the install disk, instead of one
with a flag or an apple ;-)

Off-topic2: don't underestimate the strength of association:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

--
Mvg, Sander Devrieze.
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[chris johnston]

Peter has made valid points as seen below my message. What are the
differences between branding and marketing. Branding is an association of a
name to quality, offerings, and perceptions in the market space. Marketing
is a consumer centric message to educate the market and differentiate the
brand from competitors or similar offerings.

XMPP is HTTP as instant message (IM) is to webpage

I like data so let's slice it differently :->

XMPP is HTTP as Jabber is to the world wide web

Now I can go on and on about this as the discussion list has..it could be
sliced differently in explanation till the cows come home.

So The foundation is called the XMPP foundation historically the XML like
language used to exchange the information was called Jabber. Ahhaa a
historical terminology to identify the data exchange language. Easy
solution.

Icon:
I truly believe the light bulb should be historically associated with XMPP
as a synonymous identity. Chat/IM/Jabber/XMPP clients can use what ever
icon they choose but to maintain consistency and consumer branding stick
with the "light bulb" graphic. The XSF can have their brand as it
identifies the group that ensures quality and constancy for the data
exchange language.

Consumer name of icon: Jabber
Technical name: XMPP


As perception grows people will without a doubt associate the for profit
business Jabber, Inc. with XMPP, fully disclosed at
http://www.jabber.org/book/export/html/259 on it's usage which is fair and
just.

Stay consistent. Don't complex this issue with the usage of immaterial terms
such as IM or Chat, users know these terms are the same, let them use it as
they see fit because they're understood clearly by the user. Don't make
them think.

-Chris Johnston

p.s. the "Don't make them think" statement is the reason why Idiocracy is an
accurate depiction of the future. Importantly a key statement in marketing
and GUI.




On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 2:45 PM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter (AT) stpeter (DOT) im>
wrote:

>
>
>> But the official icon for applications should be the jabber bulb, or the
>> xmpp X? should the apps be renamed from "jabber client" to "xmpp client"?
>>
>> I think that most apps use the bulb and are called "jabber client" but
>> pidgin doesn't, wich is a bit confusing.
>>
>
> IMHO:
>
> Jabber is to XMPP as the Web is to HTTP.
>
> Geeks talk about HTTP, but end users talk about web browsers and web sites.
>
> Geeks talk about XMPP, but end users talk about Jabber clients (or just IM
> clients).
>
> Therefore I think it is best for end-user clients to use the term "Jabber".
> This is more user-friendly and less geeky for Aunt Tillie.
>
> That said, I am an individualist and I value decentralization, so if
> particular IM clients want to call it XMPP instead of Jabber, that's their
> business. But I reserve the right to boycott them. :)
>
> Peter
>
>

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[Kevin Smith]

This thread makes me remember one of the great strengths of the
Internet. If someone presents their opinion often enough, it'll become
fact.

Sadly, that's not going to change until people stop eating sliced carrots.

/K
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